And I said, Okay, that sounds really good. And then it started, because I’m saying, Okay, fine, I’ll take care of it. It’s four o’clock in the morning, I’m just going to go back to sleep. And the universe says, Uh, no, you’re not. You’re going to sit down. As a matter of fact, you’re going to write the full intro. You’re going to write the first full promo, and it’s going to be a few minutes long. And I said, Alright, fine. So I got up at four o’clock in the morning, wrote it all out, and I started doing podcasts. I joined a group that both of us are involved in, and they directed me to Krystal. I asked Krystal to be a guest on my program toward a better life. And Wow, we hit it off and we just have so much in common. We have so many cool things to talk about.  

I went through the same thing with Krystal when she first came on my podcast saying, Okay, so when do we really start the podcast? And we had probably, I don’t know, know, 20, 30 minutes  on the phone before we actually started. So I appreciate Krystal’s insights into helping people, helping people where they are, helping people to help themselves, and learning that life really can be a truly enjoyable experience if you look at it that way. And if you choose to look at it from a negative perspective, guess what you’re going to get. And I said, You know, we have so many different things in common that we can do with that so this is cool. This is awesome. 

Krystal Jakosky:    I love you and I want to put you in my pocket and just carry you around with me. Thank you for the boost. One of the things that Kevin and I have the opportunity to really connect with and is dear to my heart is actually the native path. And so today, in the interest of bringing more awareness and more understanding about possibilities and different healing modalities that you guys can dive into, finding your peace, finding your direction, finding your life, I really wanted Kevin to come on and talk about his journey with that native path so that you guys can understand a little bit more, because some of us are really drawn to it. I can tell you that any time I hear those drums, I am bouncing and walking around right along with it, because there is something that speaks to my heart and soul, and it brings me joy to be in that area. So Kevin, what drew you to the native path? Tell me about a little bit of your background and what brought you to that new place?  

Kevin Pennell:    I became really curious about how the indigenous people worked in close harmony with the world around them. They saw the trees as their brothers. You see the animals as their brothers and sisters. They would call the trees, not trees, but they called the brothers, called them the tall ones. Would call the stones, the rocks, grandmothers and grandfathers. They would go into a sweat lodge or they’d call them the stone people because they were the wisest people, because these stone people have been around for thousands of years. And the only way that we have to communicate is if you’re really in tune with stuff. You’re walking a long garden past some place, maybe out in Colorado or Texas or Minneapolis or wherever you might be in this little stone. You’re just drawn to it and you say, I got nothing, but it looks cute, so I’ll pick it up.  

And you, and if you actually tried to tell that person, you do know that that stone just talked to you, Right? They’d say, Yeah, Right. What planet did you just fall off of? But I was always intrigued by the natural world, and I’ve always been intrigued by all the beauty of the natural world. And then I found myself just getting interested in that. And I started to say, Well, I wonder if I have any native blood in me. And I said, Well, you know, and at the time I was living in Broward County down in Florida, and we had a pretty big library. The library in Broward County was huge. And they actually had an archive section, and you could go in, believe it or not, Krystal, you could go into there and you can look up the original manifests from the original Mayflower.

Obviously they’re micro-fish, but it was amazing. We’re talking about handwriting Okay. That they had preserved from some place. And I’m going to just casually conclude the other, you know, and the curiosity part comes in. Oh, I wonder if Pinnell is in the right place. Yeah. 1637, third Mayflower, there’s a Pinal. I went, Oh my gosh. My family’s been here since 1637. And I know my dad had told me that, you know, the other crew came in from Wales, around sometime  in the mid to early 1700s, because our ancestors fought in the Revolutionary War. So, geez, you know, common sense will tell you, I’ve got to have native blood in me. Right. I’ve been around here for three to 400 years. It’s got to be native blood in me. Right? So I started that path and I started chumming around with different folks, and I was really drawn to a couple of folks.  

One of those people as a person, I wrote about. The book is Two Feather Spiritual Seed Planter, and it’s written by Kevin Laughing Hawk, which is my spirit name that he gave me. But when Kenny and I first met, and this is shown in the book, when Kenny and I first met, I went into that guy, and I’m just talking with him because I was curious, and at the time I was doing news for local a radio station, and I said, You know, I wonder, I’m not really into the idea of interviewing this guy for a program, but I did see him identified in a local newspaper, The Gainesville Sun, I think it was. I sat down and I talked with him, and I just said, You know, you’re an interesting man and I would really like to share a little bit more with you.  

He said, Sure, by all means, what questions do you have? And that short little time ended up being two and a half hours, difficult to do with you. Well, if you knew two feathers, you’d see that we’re on the verge of destruction here for taking up time. Oh, wow. Both of us just went on and on and on. And one of the most significant things that he said to me, he looked at me and he said, I do have a question for you, Kevin. I said, What’s that? He says, Do you know who you are? And I said, Well, sure. I know exactly who I am. I’m Kevin Pennell,  I’ve been a pi, I’ve been a cop. I was in radio, I’m in radio now, and you know, I’ve done this, I’ve done that. I’ve done, No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do you know who you are? And I said, I, I don’t. He says, We’ll go to that later. And he told me also, You know so you write news stories? I said, Yeah. He says, You know, maybe someday you ought to write a book about me or write a book about us. And I went, Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. Like, I’m going to do that. 10 years later I did.

But, you know, so that’s the process. I was, you know, Kenny and I got together and I looked at him as my, my good friend, my brother, my teacher, my mentor. We are convinced that we were related in a past life, and we’ve got proof in our hearts and our spirits that that’s very, very true. And if I had a picture of him someplace, I would try to pull it up here to show you, because particularly in the cover of my book, and if you go to Amazon, you can see it. And people would look at that picture and they’d say, Well, it’s about Ken two feathers. Why did you put your picture on the cover?  

And I didn’t. That’s Kenny, that’s how close we looked like each other. And when I was living up in Maine I’d be on the street walking along and somebody’d holler across the street, and this is a little village up there called Bethel. He would holler across the street, and they would say, Kenny. Kenny. And I’m looking around Flood, trying to find Kenny. I can’t see Kenny anywhere,  I turned around and then said, Oh, wait a minute. You’re not Kenny  

They were talking to me. Things for a compliment. Yeah. Thanks for the compliment. I really appreciate that. Nice thoughts. But Kenny taught me so much about this stuff, and I was still convinced that I was Native American. You know, after all, I’ve been here for 300 and something years. My family’s been here that long. I mean, my gosh, I’ve got to be Native American, Nope. Few years ago, Vicky, who’s my partner, got me one of these DNA test things, and I found out that I am Scott Welsh, Irish, and a little bit of German. And here’s the cool part that I didn’t expect. I’m also a Viking.

That answered a lot of questions for me, because if you go into some of the history of the Carolinas and some of the Virginias, you’ll find out that a lot of the intermarriages that took place a couple of hundred years ago with the Cherokee people, and it looks like they would intermarry with Celtics. If you start looking at the Celtic traditions, and you look at them in comparison to Native American ways, both of them honor the earth, both of them look at the spirits of the world, the spirits of the animals, the spirits of the earth, the spirits of everything. And that’s enough common ground to cause a beautiful relationship between people. So instead of turning my back on it saying, Well, you know, I’m not Native American, I’m a human being.  

And that’s what Kenny would tell you. He says, there is no such thing as a Native American, an indigenous person, this, that, the other, we’re all human beings. And that is the essence of it, is to become a human being and a true human being as someone who not only honors the earth, but they honor people and they honor others’ ways. And that continued the journey. But it wasn’t until about a year or so before Kenny crossed over that I came to the realization that, Nope, I’m Scott Welsh and Irish mostly. And I’m okay with that. But in the midst of all of that, what I learned over a period of 15, 20 years of exposure to some of the indigenous people, particularly northeastern woodlands, Kenny was a penobscot and Sarney. You have Pinco, Mick Mack, Ma,  Paqua, you know, all that group that’s up there in Maine and New England. And I sat under his tutelage and learned a great deal about sweat lodges, about getting, giving a name about the significance of having a spirit named significance of the sacred pie, significance of the giveaway. All those beautiful stories and how I made them a part of me. And in sharing that book, I encouraged other people to do this as well, from a standpoint of not becoming a Native American, but to become a better human being. So there’s the short version.

Krystal Jakosky:   The question of, do you know who you are? Is a terrifying question, I think, for a lot of us. I mean, on the one hand, absolutely, I’m so and so, and this is what I do, but do you really know who you are? And to be sitting, you were drawn to indigenous people, you were drawn to the Native American ways. And to have this person sitting there asking you such a deep question You said, I’m Kevin Pennell, and I do this and this, and this and this, But inside, were you freaking out?  

Kevin Pennell:   Oh, yeah. 

Krystal Jakosky:    How did you move from, was it in just that one interview where you moved from where acquaintances and we’re checking each other out, and I wanted to know more about you that you automatically moved into, I want to take you under my wing. Or how did it change from just these two people meeting to, you need to learn more about who you are, and I want to teach you?

Kevin Pennell:   It was one step at a time. In the book I talk about asking for a teacher or looking for a teacher, and it was still a curiosity. And I’m a curious person. I’m a very curious person, underscore that several times. And curiosity can be a blessing, could also be a curse. In this instance, it was a blessing. And the curiosity continued that Kenny says, Oh, we’ve got a Native American gathering coming up. Next month they have what they used to call down around Dad city, They called it the full moon ceremony. And it was beautiful, and it was on the full moon. And you would, we would have all these different people come and, and it was intertribal and even those that were not native and yet called to it, and don’t let me forget, I want to go to that in a second. Their essence was drawing me toward a deeper understanding of these people that were so beautiful and so wonderful. And I said, You know, there’s got to be something here and I can’t quite figure it out. So I kept going back to Kenny and talking with him. This wasn’t just one conversation. And to answer your first question, I’m sorry, was, you know, did you at that point in time realize that you were the student and he was the teacher? The answer is no. The universe knew it.  

Universe knew, it’s taken us this long to get you two guys together crying out loud. You have no idea what a pia this has been.

 And as we moved along, I started hearing about gifting tobacco and asking for a teacher. And really what that means to ask an indigenous person to be your teacher. Kenny taught me a lot as far as being very traditional in some of this stuff, and I’m not dissing anyone for any of this, but, there were people that if you wanted a teacher, then you not only gifted tobacco, but you gifted money. And if you wanted a sweat, you gifted money. It just goes on and on and on. And I’m not I’m not dissing anyone because that’s just their path. But the way that I was taught is, if I want a teacher, I gift them tobacco. If I want a sweat lodge, I gift them tobacco. If I want them to awaken a spirit pipe for me, I gift them tobacco. Why tobacco?  

It’s bad for you. No. What it is, is, is it actually, the smoke is lifted with our spirit thoughts in the smoke to creator to the universe, to the ancestors around us, because that’s how the prayers are lifted. That’s why so often tobacco is looked at as a sacred herb, because its essence, the smoke as it’s burned, lifts our prayers and our intentions to the universe around us and the ancestors. So you would gift tobacco. And after a month, I’d say, I realized I really do want to know more about this. And I ended up gifting Kenny Tobacco and asking him to be my teacher. Part of that entailed, when you asked someone to be your teacher, you are like, I still use the term today. You’ve opened the door. You’ve opened the door to what you’ve opened to allow that person to share with you what they find to be the most benefit for you to be a better human being.  

And guess what? Some of those things they tell you, if you’re a good teacher, you may not and you probably won’t like. Because they tell you stuff that is better for you as a person. And I’m not going to sit here and tell you that it was all actually roses. As roses have thorns, Kenny upset me enough a couple of times that I wanted to punch him. I’m not kidding at all. It just irritated the crap out of me. And he had me, I’m gonna steal your term. He had me own my shit. And I really didn’t want to own my shit because it’s my shit. It’s not somebody else’s. And it’s so easy to say, that’s your fault. You just don’t want to admit to it because it’s your perception. Yeah. So after a while, I became his student, he was my mentor. So he was my student, I was his student, I was his man, he was my mentor. I’ll slip on that because the interesting thing is, when you get in deep enough with somebody, the roles do reverse. You establish a beautiful relationship that is beyond words.  

And as he would say, I’m not sure about our timeframe here, but if you can do this while we’re talking, I’m going to find something since it is going to be shown on YouTube, there’s a beautiful little story if I’m allowed to do this. Okay. 

Krystal Jakosky:    Yeah. This is your podcast. Well, it’s my podcast. You are my guest. You can get to do what you want. 

Kevin Pennell:    If I can do this in a camera. Okay. So I’ve got, There we go. I’ve got three dots here, right? Yeah. Okay, So now I’m going to take this, I’m going to draw a couple of lines here, and here it is again. 

Krystal Jakosky:    Further back, hold it further back so we can see it better. There we go. Okay.  

Kevin Pennell    So when we’re here, this is you and I talking to you, Krystal. Okay. Yeah. But the relationship that we’re forming also forms another relationship.  

This is our higher selves communicating and they’re communicating in terminology. We cannot identify, we cannot communicate because we don’t know, we don’t understand that language. So in a higher form, you and I are communicating. And that’s how Kenny and I were, and that’s how all relationships are. If you really look at it, and it’s when we have these types of relationships that people should understand that. I don’t want to go down this road because it’s a whole nother podcast. But if you are in a situation where you need to end a relationship, this needs to finish or not finish, but you’d redefine it.  

Because you’ve had that communication at that level. And so you have to figure out a way to make it real, to make it a good thing. And one of the things that we’ve used, I know some people think about affirmations, and I got an affirmation years ago, and this was not native, it was not indigenous, but it came from a spiritualist that I met down in Florida. He was an elder in a group down there. And the words go, you put a name or an object in the beginning of this affirmation, you’d say, Jack, I now release you to your good. The good of one is the good of all. Now keep those three little things in mind that I just showed you because Jack and I have had a relationship. But now we need to shift that relationship. So the I that I is the divine side of me, the higher self that I now release you to your good, I now release you to your higher self.  

I now release you to the good intentions that you have. The ultimate result of that is in doing so, you help everyone and yourself included, because the good of one is the good of all. And that’s how you do stuff. If we realize that it really helps our relationships a lot more, so you can see where I can, we can really go to town on that. So that information was shared with me in that it’s so important that we really do get the picture of what it’s like to have a relationship with someone and to be integrated with that person because we are not just linear, but the whole picture. Yeah. So we’re embraced together in that whole thing.   

Krystal Jakosky:    There’s a ton in there. And I was trying to quietly and discreetly take some notes because there are so many things that I want to jump back to. I do the same thing. So, I love the illustration when I am working with a client or when I am being taught with somebody. I have, I have for a long time, 20 years, been very aware of my higher self. And there have been plenty of times that my higher self has been talking with the other person’s higher self. Then I understand. So it helps me to see their perspective. It helps me to see their point of view, why they feel a certain way. When I’m working with a client, I make sure that the conversation between my higher self and myself is very clear. So that if there is information that I need to give to my client while I’m teaching them how to listen to their higher self, it’s a very sacred and beautiful connection that you can build and you can really honor like yourself with your higher self and understanding and trusting the information that you get from them.  

And as a teacher and a student connection, it’s even more sacred and special because of the added depth of the relationship that can happen because of the fact that you’re willing to spiritually connect together. My husband has this phrase, he says, the student becomes the master. And I think that goes to your comment that, that it does, we shift for a little while. We become, we are the teacher or we are the student. And after a little while, we are going to shift and we will be the other, we will be the student or the teacher on some level in some manner. And it’s a beautiful give and take because we’re all human and we all have experiences that we can share to help change lives in beautiful, gentle, and not so gentle ways. Some of the best lessons that I have learned are the ones where I just kind of want to flip the finger and say, Screw you, I don’t want to talk to you anymore.  

Kevin Pennell:    And then I have had those clients who they don’t talk to me for a week or two because what I ask them, what I am inspired to ask them from my eye or power saying, Hey, you need, you need a bigger nudge than what you’re willing to accept right now. So I’m going to say this. And it really upsets them. It’s really infuriating. And yet they always come back and say, thank you.  

I needed that. I wasn’t willing to accept that. And the way that you did that was so fabulous. It hurts like hell. It pisses us off. And yet those moments, as long as we’re still saying yes, and, and I’m going to choose into this, then we’ll see what happens and where it goes. And I’m really grateful for you, that Kenny was able to push your buttons.

Krystal Jakosky:    Am I? You have no idea. He, he came in, I’ll go ahead. No, you’re good. No, no, no. Please. You had a question. I want to because I will ramble forever.  

Kevin Pennell:    No, I was, what I was going to say was actually to the audience and the fact that oftentimes those people who are so challenging have the biggest lessons. They have the biggest opportunity for shifting, for growth. If we step back, take a moment and ask, Okay, what am I supposed to learn? What am I being shown? How can I deal with this? Instead of shutting down and putting that wall there and a million locks and everything else to push that person out of our lives, maybe we step back and say, Okay, how can I learn and how can I grow and how can life be better because of this really frustrating moment that I am experiencing? So friction is good.  

Krystal Jakosky:    It is something, somebody ought to come up with a line like breathe in and breathe out. 

Kevin Pennell:    Right. Thank you.  

So a little while back, I want to bring us back to this because I wanted to come back and you mentioned that you wanted to come back. The whole concept of you thought for sure that you had Native American blood in you, that you were somehow related to that. And then you go in with Kenny two feathers and you’re learning from him. And you said you wanted to return to this concept of the fact that you actually don’t have, and yet you were learning from.  

So in some work that I had done on my own and thankfulness to others, for what it’s worth my background, degree is in theology. And I did a flip some years ago and I will not, again, I’m not going to put anybody down because they go to church because that is the level of spirituality. That’s the way you achieve your level of spirituality that  you feel that you’re growing from and that you’re getting a lot of benefit from. And that’s fine. It’s just not who I am anymore. It was part of my process. I don’t regret any of that. But all that being said, I’m leading into something. And that is that I strongly believe in reincarnation Now, I believe in it so strongly that I can tell you that there were incidents in my life where dreams that used to come to me after I had made a shift and I had made a change that was needed in my life, Guess what happened to those dreams? They stopped because I made the change that was necessary. And I realized after I had had this one, I had one dream that was, it was to the point,  it would actually become nightmarish and it would wake me up. And it was scary. I’m sure people have had these kind of dreams where you would have a dream where you either you want to punch somebody and for whatever reason, everything goes into slow motion and you can’t quite get your fist into it where you need to go stops  

Yeah. Or you have the other situation, which was this one that I had a spear in my hand and I was native. I was a pueblo and I had my spear and we were being invaded and I knew that I had to do something and I just kept trying to move forward with this. And it’s, I’m going to kill you. I’m going to do this. And nothing will ever happen with that. I had a past life regression done by a colleague of mine and came to realize the reason why I had such a hard time with that is because that’s not what happened. Oh. I was a spiritual leader of that group, and I had taken the vow to be a peacemaker, and that meant that I didn’t raise arms against anybody.  

And the truth came out that I watched my family get killed. Wow. And that was tough. And after I realized what was involved with that, I saw for the first time in that juncture, a real essence of what I was in that life. Not only had it been that, but I also found that there were some roots in the Kwa Nation. And because I was, I talked with somebody one time and we were just having a great time, just like you and I are having a great time right now. And we started singing some wonderful songs and some of the songs that just came from the heart just came from Spirit. I’m just going at it. And the lady that I was with at the time, she says she just held her hand up and she was black feet and Polish.  

That’s a good combination. She said, You need to stop right there. And I said, Why? What? You know, what did I do? And I’m still, this is like three or four years into my, two or three years into my path on some of this indigenous people path. What did I do? Did I offend you? And she, No,  have you been around K people? And I said, No, I’ve never been around Kwa people. Where are they? And she says, Well, you know, up Midwest. And I said, Okay. So what? She says, Well, you’re singing in the K language. I got nothing. And again, I did some more work. And I’m, I’m comfortable with that, that Kwa. And some people say, Oh, you’re just one of those frilly, fufu people that just believes in anything and everything.  

But what I’ve got also down deep inside of me is a real sense. And it was brought into full light when I saw, and I heard from Kenny, but I heard about a story that was given down, I believe by the Hopi, and I can be wrong, but something about that there are so many souls who are out there from the 500 nations that occupied North America. There are not enough bodies for the souls that have crossed over. And so some of those souls went into the people of today, the white people, and those that have the hearts and the minds ready for this sort of thing.  Okay, I can accept that or not, all I know is this. I’m going to move along with the way that time feels. I’m the most comfortable. And so, I will talk about, you need to be very wary of being too comfortable because you know, you can get so comfortable that you no longer grow. But comfort in this act, I would say not comfortable, but content with the concept that I’m confident that I’ve been in native in the past. And that’s why one of the reasons I gravitated back to this is because I see the connection between my true heritage of the Celtic people and the inherited or reincarnated heritage of my native side. So yeah, it’s beautiful. It’s powerful stuff.  

I’m searching for the right words at the moment because there are a ton of thoughts and ideas going through my brain right now. And I want to say these words in the most respectful and honoring way that I can. We are drawn to different things. We are drawn to different ways of life. And it is all an opportunity to learn and grow. It is all an opportunity to find compassion and expansion with understanding a different culture, a different way of living, a different state of being. And this is, and I would like to mention that not by way of just Native American and indigenous pupils. I’m talking about people who live differently than us. Maybe it’s someone who chooses religion and the structure that that gives them over spirituality. Perhaps it’s someone who has a different societal belief, right? Whether you’re Republican or Democrat or all those things.  

Perhaps it’s someone who is lgbtq plus versus someone who is not unaware of it. Somebody who is deaf and in that community and culture and somebody who is not and is trying to learn how to respect and honor the different cultures and ways of living around us. And I think that by learning about it, inviting that in from a very respectful and honoring space, we learn so much more. And just like you are the student, you may also become the teacher and help people recognize that you’re not out to get them and that you are more balanced and that things are okay and whatnot. I think there’s this huge opportunity for all of us to come together in this compassionate, gentle space. If you are drawn to the beliefs and the feelings and the teachings and the culture of indigenous people, I encourage you to dive in.  

I encourage you to respectfully dip your toes and send out to the universe and say, Hey, can you send me a teacher and help me meet the people that I need to meet so that I can start walking on that path? Because the only way you will find that person is if you do open up. Kevin and I were talking about the concept right now. Kevin’s very much in this. Yes. And what else can I do? And if you say, yes, I would like that teacher, and what else can I learn? How many things shift? 

You bet it does. Just be ready for the ride. I think when you are working with someone within the native community, as an outsider, I would say this, I felt truly honored when I was living out in the southwest living, living in Arizona. And I found the sweat lodge to be so beneficial for me as a person. And it really did a lot for my heart, my spirit, my soul, and what a wonderful group of people they were that were there. It was on the Pima Reservation. And if you’re familiar with Phoenix, that’s pretty much really close within the city limits of Phoenix. But they were Pima, there were Pima and there were Navajo. That was pretty much it. Those two people, excuse me, there was Apache, there were Apaches there too.  

And the sweat lodges that I had been to up to that point were a big one for me was 10, 15 people. This sweat lodge alone was probably, I’m gonna guess it was, it was elliptical. So it was probably pretty close to somewhere between 16 and 20 feet long and probably a solid 12 to 14 feet wide, big sweat lodge. Wow. And I thought a big sweat lodge that we would have had a really heavy duty sweat lodge had 12 to 15 stones. No, we had somewhere between 48 and 52 stones in that sweat lodge. And everyone in there, you could just feel the spirit in there. And I faithfully went there for my own sake. I mean, because I needed that in my life at that time. I had drifted a little bit. I’m still on the path and still doing it, but I’m still being pulled into other stuff and we can maybe go into that later or go into another podcast. But we all will drift from time to time off of our given path. And sometimes it’s done for different reasons, but in this one, I felt really good that it gave me that grounding that I needed.  

And literally out of the proverbial blue, the leader came to me and parenthetically the leader and his wife actually helped young men and women on the PMA reservation with substance abuse. And they used the sweat lodge as a vehicle to help them overcome substance abuse. So it was pretty powerful. Yeah. He came up to me after I’d been there for some months, he put his hand on my shoulder and he said, Can I speak with you for a minute brother? And I said, Sure, what’s up? He says, You know, we have another sweat lodge. I said, Yeah, I, you know, coming next Tuesday, Wednesday, whatever it was, he says, No, no, no. He says, We have a family swat lodge every Sunday and I’d like you to start attending.  

Krystal Jakosky:    Oh wow.  

Kevin Pennelll:    That blew me away.  

Krystal Jakosky:    Literally invited you into the family.  

Kevin Pennell:    Yeah. And no ceremony. It just was what it was. And I also had the opportunity, one of the Apaches in the group came up, put their hand on my shoulder one day and then said, we have a very special thing. And we’d like, and this is after I had been invited to go to the Sunday sweats, because it was at one of those Sunday sweats that he came to me. And let’s face it guys, I don’t look native  

And he puts his hand on my shoulder and he says, Are you familiar with a very special Apache dance where a young woman is ushered into a young lady and is ushered into womanhood? And I said, Yeah, I’m a little familiar with that. He says, Well, we have a young lady who’s doing that. This, you know, whenever it is, he says, we’d be honored to have you. And this is the one where you would have the dancers, and the brain’s gone right now. Hopefully it’ll come back. Wink wink, nudge, nudge Krystal, maybe you can help me out here. But you have the special dolls that you can buy at gift shops and they’re the really cool looking dolls that you get. And they’re Hopi basically. Yeah, well the Apache have them too, just so you know. And  I went to that dance and they had the bonafide ones. They didn’t have the tourist ones because you can go to either one of those dances in Arizona and this one you were stopped on the road when you were coming in saying, who invited you?  

I told them and they said, Okay, you can come in.  

Krystal Jakosky:    Okay, fine. We’ll admit you. What I want to know, and I want my listeners to know, what is the purpose or the intention behind the sweat lodges?  

Kevin Pennell:    Good question. There’s a chapter in the book about that.

Sweat lodge. I attended the sweat lodge basically to– how do I start with this? Sweat lodge is an opportunity for us to bear ourselves to the universe and to cleanse ourselves from whatever is holding spirit back. Black Elk and his nephew, Frank FOLs Crow also had the same thing. And that is that with sweat lodges, you are given the opportunity to bury your soul and to go down deep inside and reveal to you what you need to change. Fools Crow talked about being a hollow bone and there’s a workshop that I’ve done before called Becoming a Hollow Bone. And interestingly enough, to me it’s also one of those central truths like love because the Dalai Lama talks about becoming, believe it or not, he uses the term becoming a hollow tube. But the hollow bone is just simply this.  

That you get rid of the stuff that’s inside that bone to allow more spirit to come through that’s unobstructed. And to give the analogy, they give the example of a plumbing pipe that if it gets clogged, the water can’t get through and you have to unplug it. And so the Sweat lodge is one of the vehicles that can be used to help rid ourselves of the stuff that’s within our being, within our bones that will help spirit to come through better. That’s one of the parts. But in most cases it’s  an opportunity to be cleansing and beautiful. That’s what’s done. And that’s another piece that I was taught if you want to have a sweat lodge. I was honored in being able to be taught how to do a sweat lodge and I’ve poured a few sweat lodges.  

The way that I would do a sweat lodge was somebody would come up to me, and this is how Kenny taught me and others chimed in with the same thing, is that you come up to me, you give me tobacco, and you give me a reason why. And I’m not trying to be a jerk, but if somebody comes up to me and says, Oh, I want to have a sweat lodge because I want to know what it’s like. No, why do you want it? It’s like the same question, Do you know who you are?

If you give me a good reason or if you give that elder a good reason and tobacco, there’s your way. And typically what I did was somebody would give tobacco or somebody would give Kenny tobacco and he’d say, Give me a few days to talk with the spirits. And that’s what you do. And my thing was, he taught me if I wait three times to come back through. And the third time it affirms that. In fact, if the third time doesn’t come at a certain length of time, then it ain’t going to happen. It’s just not meant to be. It doesn’t mean that you can’t have a sweat, it just means that I’m not supposed to be the one to do it. Or maybe you’re not supposed to have one. So there’s no money exchanged, it’s just your gift of tobacco. That’s the way I was taught. And you typically break bread afterward too. There’s a lot more to it than that. Does that answer the question?  

Krystal Jakosky:    No, it’s a fantastic answer and I very much appreciate it because it literally brings everything back to intention and spirituality and being connected with source, being connected with the universe, being connected with spirit, whatever that phrase is that works for you. So Native Americans, indigenous people, some people are going to do sweat lodges, and that is how they connect with that spirit. And other people are going to go to organized religion. That is where they have that connection with that higher power that brings them the peace and joy that they need. It all works for everyone depending on where you’re at and what you are seeking and what fills your heart and gives you the answers that you need in that moment. And so I love the intention behind it. I love the purpose behind it. It’s I am seeking, or I would like to connect or I need this, and because I need that, I am going to seek for answers. I’m going to seek healing. I am going to find somebody who can help me move forward and be better in my life than I already am right now. So thank you for that answer. Thank you for sharing.

Kevin Pennell:   Part of it is, the magic word that you used is something I used with students when I teach not only workshops, but  when I teach in massage school and when I teach whatever, intention is key. Intention is critical. So it doesn’t matter what you’re doing, you need to look at the reason behind it. Yeah. And you need to really say, Am I doing this for the right reasons? What’s my intention? What am I really engulfing in this? What am I really putting into this? What kind of energy am I putting into this? Yeah. And if you’re working with someone, side note massage therapy is, is if you don’t have the intention when you’re talking with somebody, or excuse me, when you’re working with someone and you’re doing the massage with someone, you’re doing the body work with someone, any of the stuff that we’re talking about, even if you’re doing counseling or if you’re doing anything like that, and if your mind is not totally focused with good intention with that person, don’t think for a second that they won’t feel it.  

You don’t have to say it. Words don’t have to express what’s really going on. And if we’re human, we’re going to do this, but if my brain is on, well, geez, I wish this interview would get done because I’ve got other things to do. If I let that intention come out in that, going back to the little three globes I had, and if your higher self picks up on that, guess what? You say, Okay, that’s good. See ya. And I never hear from you again. But it’s the side. The other side of that is if you’re a body worker and you are totally committed to this person and you’re not thinking about your rent, you’re not thinking about, Oh geez, this is this person again. And you’re not thinking about, Oh, what am I going to do this weekend?  

And if you’re not, you know, all the little thought monkeys coming in and if you’re not sidetracked by all that, guess what? They know it. They know when you are connected to them. And then the magic really happens because they say, Wow, I don’t know what this is that you’ve just done with me as far as a massage is concerned, or whatever the case may be, but it’s the most fantastic, most beautiful, most awesome experience. And I will come back and you say, Okay, great. And I will, It’s just magical when you do that because people want that. I was talking earlier today with someone and they said, You know what people are starving for right now. I mean, we’re doing this on a podcast, we’re doing this on YouTube, but they really miss being together. Actually touching each other. And it’s that communication that is so important. But anyway, ramble on intention next.

Krystal Jakosky:    No, you’re good. I’ve also noticed for me personally, I have done ti massage, meaning I am a trained ti massage therapist. And so I have often found that when I am in it, and this goes for, I mean, you brought out massage therapy, but I think that this goes for almost any action that we’re doing. If you focus on the action that you’re doing and you are really in it, I am cutting these vegetables and I’m getting the same size. I’m sanding wood, I’m chopping wood, I’m working on a client. If you focus on that and let everything else go, it actually becomes a meditation. One of my favorite things was to be working and losing my mind in what I was doing and having that intentionality and the fluidity because I was just present in that moment. And that presence is what brought me peace, is what brought me more energy to continue with the rest of my day. And so intention, the presence and things are completely different. So Kevin, what are you doing now? 

Kevin Pennell:    I’m talking with you. You ask, I mean.

Krystal Jakosky:    Like these days, I mean you and I could shop talk forever, you guys, I’m telling you Kevin and I could do a year’s worth of podcast and probably not touch on the same subject twice. And that’s fantastic to find such a gift like that. So I sincerely thank you for having me on your A Better Life podcast. And then I really thank you for being here because I really wanted to talk about the native way of life and their love for the earth and their connection to the world around us, because I think it is so absolutely beautiful. I feel that draw and it is one of those things that speaks peace and joy to my heart with all of the other things that we have talked about, but not necessarily on this podcast. What else are you into these days? Like what else are you doing in life?  

Kevin Pennell:    Well, I do have to share one other little thought with Native American stuff. It just came to me and I would just want to honor that, that if you are a person listening to this, watching this, and if you’re being drawn in that direction, be you white or be you native. And if you are drawn in that direction and you start to seek out someone, know this, that eventually, if you’re doing it for the right reasons, with the right intentions, it goes back to the old saying, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. But at the same token, when you find that teacher or where you find that person, you don’t just run right out and give them tobacco right on the spot. No, just take your time, go slow. Take it to somebody who has been there. Oh dear. You know, I want everything and I want it right now. Because that’s the way you do stuff, right? No, take your time. Be patient would be one key word. Another key word to keep in mind is love, trust, and thankfulness.  

Honor sharing, caring, giving, loving. That’s the ones that I’m trying to run in my brain. But that’s what we would say all the time to love, to share, to care, to give. We’re coming up on a season called, of course, Thanksgiving. And I have a podcast coming up that’s going to be on the Thanksgiving address. And if you have an opportunity to look up on Google or listen to the podcast, it doesn’t matter to me. It really doesn’t. What’s most important to me is that you look and find the Thanksgiving address. It was as it was delivered by the Iroquois people. Because it’s beautiful. When I did it the other day, I got emotional. It just really hit my heart when I would listen to my really good friend Mike Douglas giving that information to me. He was the main preventative skill school.  

Hope you don’t mind my sharing that. But, thankfulness is so important to be thankful for the air that we breathe. Be thankful for the life that we have. Be thankful that we are old because we could have died young. Be thankful for the simple little things. Be thankful for the person in your life. Be thankful for the people in your life. So what am I doing now? Well, I am enjoying doing podcasts. You’re talking about being focused on stuff. People really, my partner can’t believe it about how I can sit down with my audition software and I can spend hours editing. You can share that information with Avery. I can just go away. I mean, hours will go by and I’m just sitting here going on. 

Yeah. But I’m such a big picture person and yet at the same time I can be very detail oriented when I need to be. In Native traditions sometimes that’s referred to as mouse medicine. But anyway, so I do my podcast, I do some instruction, I do some workshops. I am a massage therapist who sees people here in Asheville, North Carolina, Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, I have  people ask, even if you’re a massage therapist and your listener watching this, and some people will ask me, Well, how many massages do you do a day? And I typically am going to do two to four, and that’s my happy place. Yeah. Could I do six? Yeah, I could, but I wouldn’t last. I’ve been doing body work of some level or another for about 22 years, and it can be done.  

So I do the massage, I do podcasting. I walk in nature. I love to get out and about. I just like being when I can. Through our other conversations, Krystal knows that we’re into cars a little bit. And I do have another podcast called the Driving Experience. I’m really into BMWs, and racing. I used to race, but I don’t race anymore. Just because, you know, I’m not going to say I won’t because I don’t know, but I just like to live an active life. We are currently living in a senior community while we wait for our house to be built. And we tried this for a while and, Krystal, we can’t do it. And I’m not putting anything down, but I, I cannot be that old person. 

Just can’t do that. Nope. Just can’t. You’re not ready. No. And, I don’t know that I ever will be.  There was a teacher who taught, she was actually responsible forTrigger Point Therapy, and her name was Janet Trave. And Janet continued her work as a massage therapist and, and doctor up until about three to four months before she died at the ripe old age of 96. Oh, wow. I intend to beat her record. So I gotta go good. But just stay active. And if you’re older and if you’re a senior and you feel like, Oh man, I just know, just stop doing what you’re doing and go out for a walk in the woods, bathe in the woods.  

 And no, don’t take a tub with you for crying out loud. I’m talking about being one with the forest. But, you know, be active. Get around young people and, and just be and enjoy life because that’s what we’re here for. We’re here to learn. We’re here to be filled with joy. We’re here for contentment. And I mean, if you look at the Dalai Lama that still does live things on occasion, and I saw something the other day and I realized he’s pushing 90 years old. And you look at him and he’s still smiling and he’s still going around and he’s still happy and he’s not dejected, he’s not down. So yeah, let us see. What else do I do?  

I build things. I stay active and I let my brain stay active.

Krystal Jakosky:    In all of that activity, in all of the things that you’re doing and loving and enjoying, what is your favorite or most unique? 

Kevin Pennell:    Geez.  

Krystal Jakosky:    Activity for self care.  

Kevin Pennell:    Oh, good one. Yay. Wow. 

Krystal Jakosky:    I don’t know what you thought I was going to ask.  

Kevin Pennell:    You know, I didn’t. What’s your favorite one? Oh God. No.  

Krystal Jakosky:    No. What’s your favorite, what’s your favorite way to take care of yourself and rebuild, regenerate? Because you’re doing a lot. You’re out and you’re functioning. What do you do for you?  

Kevin Pennell:    I will answer this with a line that I’ve used for years. It’s four words, go with the flow. What I mean by that is, today I missed my run and I missed my walk. Because I’m doing two podcasts. One I did, and one I’m being done. What was that? 

So I could get all upset about that or I could look at this as an opportunity for me. Because that’s what this has been. Yeah. You know, I’m sharing with Krystal and this is me time, this is what I want to do. But the rest of that part is for self care, and I’ve taught, and I have a workshop that I do with this, but self care is one of the biggest things for self care is awareness.  

Krystal Jakosky:    Yeah.  

Kevin Pennell:    You know what’s missing? So I might fill that void with going out for a walk in the woods. I might fill that void with doing some Tai Chi and Chiang. I might start to do the ch style 48 and I might get through half of it and start saying, Oh, I’m good with this. Yeah. And you know, I want to go with the flow to what generates within me, the sense of being me and no one else. And if you look at that book that I wrote, one of the things that came up in that book was, I am a chameleon. True, true story. Or I have been where, because of my background, and this will really spin us off and I’m not gonna go there but because of the way I was brought up a long time in a residence or a place or a community was two years when I was growing up, two years mostly it was like 18 months on average.  

Wow. And we moved and it was no regrets, not upset, no problems. But it’s funny because what that taught me to do is how to connect with people like that. And I could make a connection. I could get that. But in order to do that, I had to be like them. Listen to that. I had to be like them, not like me, like them. Why? Because in the way that I thought, it made me more comfortable around them because I’m like them. But then is when I really got the message that Kenny was trying to ask me years and years and years before, Kevin, who do you think you are? Who are you? And I went, Wow. And that’s when the change really happened. And people say, Geez, would you do that again? I said, I would try to avoid it like the bubonic plague, but I don’t regret a bit of it because I had to go through that. I had to do that change. So back the to question, what do you do for self care? I listen to the still small voice in my heart. When I used to, when I’ve signed off on my books before, I would say something to the effect of, let your heart and spirit guide you because they’ll never let you down.  

Let your heart and your spirit guide you because they will never let you down your heart, your spirit, not the other persons, but listen to your heart within and go with that. And once you get that message, you can maybe find that what you want to do today for self-care is meditate. I do that. I can meditate for a few minutes or I can meditate for two hours. I’ve done both. I can go down that road and we’re not going to go there, but you know, meditate, Tai chi, Chiang Reiki. I can get lost doing massages. That can be, believe it or not, be my self care, giving a massage. And of course receiving a massage because that is also self care. But you’ve got to take care of yourself. If you don’t take care of yourself, no one else is going to.

Krystal Jakosky:    You are, you are echoing so many things that I already say and I absolutely love it. It’s like these gigantic exclamation points coming down saying hello. Hey guys, remember self care is the conscious and intentional act of taking care of your own needs. And it could change from day to day. It does not matter. What matters is that you are letting your heart and your spirit be your guide because they’re not going to be false to you.  

I mean it’s like bam boo. Yeah. Bring it on. Meditation, you know, meditation is the moment that you tune out the world and tune into yourself. You tune into the breathing, you tune into the moment and you let everything else go. 

Kevin Pennell:    I think one of the things you should do with part of the self care is change it up. Don’t try to do the same thing every day. Because if you do the same thing every day, it becomes a habit. And before you know it, a habit becomes a rut and you are only different, you know, do you know the only difference between the rut and a grave? Both ends are knocked out. That’s the only difference when a rut and a grave is where you haver both ends knocked out.  

Krystal Jakosky:   Wow. Okay guys, let’s stay out of the ruts. I have one more question for you Kevin. You’ve already given us a really good one. So who are you is a great journaling question. I love to leave all of my listeners with a journaling prompt or a question that they can think about and really answer. And who you are is amazing. Is there another one that you can think of that you would love to encourage people to explore?  

Kevin Pennell:    What have you done for self care for yourself today? 

Krystal Jakosky:    Okay. Just today.  

Kevin Pennell:    For the whole week?  

Krystal Jakosky:   It doesn’t have to be huge. It’s one little thing today. 

Kevin Pennell:    What have you done for yourself today? 

Krystal Jakosky:    I have, I have loved having you here. I have loved chit chatting with you. I really hope that everybody out there listening has enjoyed listening to us as well, and that you’ve been inspired and that you are leaving this session of this podcast uplifted and smiling. I am. I love Kevin. I love just the way that it’s so free and easy to talk with you. How do people find you and are there any last tidbits of wisdom or words of knowledge that you would like to share with people?  

Kevin Pennell:    So I would say first you can contact me through my website, which is toward better life.com. If you want to reach out to me, just write to me at kevin@tortaboutlife.com. I am available to do consultations and stuff like that from time to time. I haven’t mentioned that, but I do, I have done that and I will be more than happy to do it. so that’s the two easiest ways to do it. You know, if I go into phone numbers and stuff. When we get acquainted, you can have my phone number and we can text. That’s fine. Yeah.The easiest thing is toward better life.com and Kevin toward better life.com. And that’s an email and the website. That’s the easiest way to do this. And if you’re in the western North Carolina area and you’re looking for a massage, you can still do the same thing. I’ll just direct you to who to contact to get a massage. I think I would leave people just with those same simple words that if I can get them again in my head properly, and that is listen to your heart and spirit because they won’t let you down.  

Krystal Jakosky:    Amen. Oh, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for sharing with me and starting my day off so beautifully. So Right. Thank you. 

Kevin Pennell:   Thank you. Pleasure’s all mine. We’ll do this again.  

I hope this moment of self care and healing brought you some hope and peace. I’m Krystal Jacosky on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. And I hope you check us out and follow along for more content coming soon. I look forward to being with you again here on Breathe in. Breathe out. Until next time, take care.  

Liz Dube: I love talking about self-care because you know what, if you are not having a sex drive, if you’re struggling sexually, oftentimes it can be really related to lack of self-care. I think that this is such a perfect meshing of top bits because what you do outside the bedroom is what you do inside the bedroom. As they say, wherever you go, there you are. And we can’t really separate the two, if you’re not doing self-care, that’s going to block things.

Krystal Jakosky: There’s this quote online that I’m going to paraphrase. So many people have paraphrased it. I apologize to whoever said it first, because I’m not sure who you are, but paraphrasing over paraphrasing is basically that the relationship that you have with others is simply a mirror of the relationship that you have with yourself. This is so true in every avenue of your life and yet in the bedroom or outside the bedroom, wherever it is that you get a little sexy and fun, that is absolutely a reflection of your own relationship with yourself and where you’re at, how you feel. How do we break that down? How do we open that up? So, Liz is here to help us. Liz is here to talk about that and break it open. So what brought you to become a sex therapist?

Liz Dube: Well, it’s my second career, but I, when I look back on who I am as a person, and what brought me to this work because it’s pretty hard to separate the therapist from the person as is, it was back when I was 16 working at Supreme burger and it was clean up at nine o’clock. We’d close the shop and turned on Dr. Ruth on the radio. I would listen and thought, this is the Rast woman. I wanna be her when I grow up. That was just a little twinkle in my eye. And it was delayed another 20 years, but I did grow up. My mom was really progressive. She was open about the topic of sex. It wasn’t this taboo thing. She was open with her sexuality and sensuality.

I saw her giving herself permission and showing up in ways that were sex-positive and being open with my questions. So I think growing up in that environment gave me the opportunity to get accurate information about sex. Then I started to notice, wait a second, other people don’t have this. I had so many girlfriends that were shut off that didn’t know anything. Then I thought, when I get older after college, they’ll figure it out. They’ll take college classes and they’ll figure it out. I had friends who were doctors and lawyers, and they were still shut off, clueless. At a very young age, I became the unlicensed, unofficial sex therapist in their lives. And so with that, I guess it got reinforced this, the idea of exploring sex and sexuality. I entered the field of psychology. I worked in psychology and did coaching and consulting related to that. But it took me a little while. I guess I was a late bloomer. This was my second career and I felt like I have to do what I’m supposed to do in life and, figure out how to make money doing it. And it took me a little while, but I figured it out.

Krystal Jakosky: So you had a progressive mom, you had someone who really modeled healthy sexual behavior. When you said, Hey, mom, I’m gonna be a sex therapist. Did she give you a high five? What, was her reaction?

Liz Dube: This was also the point where my mom passed away and that’s when I decided to become a sex therapist. She died really young. She died at 52. And that was one of the pivotal things. I thought, shit, if I’ve got hurt, if I die early too, then I, I need to figure this out. And so those moments in life give you that carpe diem, like oh man, life is short. And so when I did decide to do it, it was funny. My siblings said, oh my God, mom’s going to be would’ve been so proud of you. I think she would’ve loved it. She was pretty crass. I get a lot of that from her. I think that she is probably smiling up there.

Krystal Jakosky: Your loss saddens me. It breaks my heart. I’m so glad that you have your siblings and that everyone is in the same boat. She’s definitely looking down just rude, rude. I’m in a different boat. I am one of those people that was closed off because I had a highly religious upbringing. The traditional dare I say, inadequate, absolutely inadequate sex education that you get in the school system and whatnot with a very awkward conversation with the parent afterward. It made me wonder I’m not sure I really wanna do that. So never mind, I’ll just backpedal a little bit. And then you learn more from your friends or magazines or movies and whatnot than you actually get from anybody else. It’s really not healthy because it’s not reality. It’s not the truth. So learning, wait a minute. So I should feel, figure out what I like and it’s okay to ask those questions and it’s okay to try to figure that out. Like none of that was even in any kind of realm until I was much older. I daresay within the last five, 10 years where I finally, and I’ve had two kids, it’s been recently that I’m like, oh, wait a minute. Let’s just … and the middle schooler mind comes out. It feels like second puberty.
Liz Dube: Yes. And then we’re expected to learn about sex from Hollywood and porn and that’s all mythical, it really is just so contrived and it creates so many unrealistic, romantic ideals, unrealistic performances. And I tell people, get Hollywood out of your bedroom because that is really fucking a lot of people up that is not in a good way.

Krystal Jakosky: Not at all in a good way. It’s tragic. It’s absolutely tragic. I had somebody say to me, I really just don’t know who I am in the bedroom because I know what I’m supposed to be. What do you mean by you’re supposed to be? And they said society says this. And I said, what society? Let me quote this movie or let me quote this or let me. I said no, no, no, no, all of that is just bullshit. Let’s forget that. Start with the basics of inside and who you are.

Liz Dube: Yeah. And I think women, in particular, are taught to follow and that shows up in the bedroom that we follow our partners. And your story is really the majority from my experience. It makes sense to me that a lot of people aren’t figuring things out until later in life, because, they’re busy doing other things. Like careers, marriage, children, and you just kind of follow where they lead you, or you just kind of go with the flow and, and then you get to a place where maybe you have this space to get curious.

Krystal Jakosky: How do you start those conversations when you are finally in this space where you think think you want to open up, I think I wanna explore. I think I want to shed all the prep that I’ve taken in and start finding my own thing. How do you start those conversations with partners?

Liz Dube: I always think about these two words, curiosity and compassion. I use those two frames as a frame of reference that you start asking questions. What do you like, what are your turn-ons? What are your turn-offs? Be really compassionate with the information that they share with you. Because so much of what we hold inside and are uncomfortable sharing is rooted in a fear of rejection, fear of judgment. If our partners feel like a judge, they’re going to shut down and they’re not going to truly share and be transparent about what they desire. They’re not going to be open to getting curious with you. They’re not going to be open to being playful or experimental. We want them to show up in that energy. We can create that space by showing up with compassion and curiosity.

And then if you’re in a healthy relationship where there is where then that’s gonna be reciprocated. And so your partner then is going to start asking you questions about what you like? Well tell them I want to know because anyone that cares about you, they want to know, but sometimes we don’t really know. I think this is one of the struggles to say I think I like this, but I don’t really know. And, so I encourage you to show up from a blank slate and focus on the five senses. How would you like to feel touch? How would you like to give touch? How would you like to receive it? Focus on things like smells, tastes, and visuals. You tap into all those five senses and start to think about what are the that have turned me on.

This is where Hollywood could be helpful if you could use what you’ve seen. What has turned you on, what has turned you off? What do you like to hear? Do you want to hear your partner say, yeah, fuck me? I love your tit your ass. Or do you want them to say, you have such a beautiful body. I love you. This feels so good. What sort of energy are you? What are you longing for? And the more specific that you can be with your partner, then the conversation expands if they can be non-judgmental and curious as well.

Krystal Jakosky: What if you are the one that says, no, I don’t like that. Even though you do. And yet here you are saying, oh, what I really like is really wrong because of the closed-off-ness that you’ve been raised with.

Liz Dube: You know, this is something I work a lot on with clients. So much of sex therapy is giving people permission to want what they want and to recognize that what you resist persists, and the more that you try to push down the things that you find erotic, the more they’re going to keep bubbling. It’s like whack-a-mole, it’s gonna keep showing up, you know?

I would encourage, you to talk about this even though it is hard. The sex therapist said it was okay. You’ve probably heard that your kinks or your fantasies are okay at one point or another, but there’s that part of you that says I don’t care that someone else said it’s okay because this still feels wrong. So I really encourage people to get curious about themselves. What is it about that that feels like it’s not okay? Where did you learn that and do your values line with what you learned? A lot of the things that we grew up with and that we learned from our parents, society, and religion, aren’t necessarily our values. So why are you using someone else’s values to measure what’s right or wrong for you? That would be a good place to start. I certainly would encourage people to read books so that they can start to educate themselves with accurate information rather than relying on Cosmo’s top 10 ways to get off or, you know, I’m aging myself. Now. I remember my mom said, you’re not reading that shit. No Cosmo for you.

Krystal Jakosky: There’s no shit in it. It’s all about sex. It’s good.

Liz Dube: Oh my God. I’m never gonna get an article in Cosmo now I’m screwed.

Krystal Jakosky: Sorry.

Liz Dube: No, I love your response because that’s very much something that we talk about is the fact that whose voice are you really listening to? When you hear something that says you suck or that’s wrong, or you shouldn’t be doing this, or you should be doing that, whose voice is it really that’s talking? Is it your personal inner voice? Is it your truth? Or is it that voice and truth that is society or the stuff that you grew up with or the other beliefs that came from other trusted sources and whatnot? Whose voice is telling you that that is yuck, whose voice is telling you that you are wrong to enjoy something that feels so good? Once you understand whose voice that is, then it’s a little bit easier to say, you know, I don’t want to listen to that anymore because it’s my body, my being is telling me this is right.

Krystal Jakosky: Yeah. And if it feels right then it’s self-care like you are giving your spotty, your soul, your spirit, something that you desperately need. It is a form of self-care let’s do more of it, please.

Liz Dube: Yeah. I think that our bodies know what we need, what we want, and what we desire and our bodies will often speak for us when we don’t speak for our bodies. I mean, it’s just as simple as that, give yourself permission just to want what you want, educate yourself in what is sexy and what turns us on can oftentimes be socially constructed. Like why isn’t a big belly on a woman sexy, why aren’t saggy tits sexy? I mean don’t let those socially constructed ideas of what is the sexy influence you to the extent that you don’t get to lean into the things that turn you on or that you want, because it’s like, there’s this weird narrow box of what’s considered sexy, okay. Sex to have. It’s so funky. And I think it really is. I think it really is socially constructed Hollywood stuff, Hollywood bullshit.

Krystal Jakosky: Yeah. Stick in this box. Don’t come outside of it. Don’t test the norms, which are, that there is no norm. Realistically, we are all so hugely different that the entire realm of sex is so huge and vast and opportunistic. You can find something that works for you. It’ll just be amazing when you allow yourself to.

Liz Dube: If you lean into it, if you’ve got some kinks that feel like this is against the grain, honey, Google that shit. You will find somebody that likes the same stuff. You can find some groups to join. And there’s a whole world out there for you. You don’t have to push yourself down,

Krystal Jakosky: Try it out. If there’s something that you are excited about. And you’re like, oh my gosh, that really turns me on. You may try it out. You may find that you absolutely love it and you want to do more of it. And yet you also may find that that was a great one-time chance or a one-time opportunity or this or that. But it’s not an every-to-time kind of thing. For me, it’s like frosting on the cake. It’s good to have a little, but not too much. It’s all about exploring. It’s all about just saying, Hey, where am I at? And what do I want? Which just makes you even more attractive because you can guide people through that, right?

Liz Dube: Yeah. Me more. Oh yeah. Me or the person.

Krystal Jakosky: Whatever partner it is that you chose on a fun thing you’re gonna go for, oh my gosh. I wanna talk to you about a conversation that we had, and you mentioned women and how women often end up closing down in public and they have to put on all this protective gear. Can you REPA on that out for our listeners? Because I just like when you mentioned this concept, I just was sitting with it saying that is so absolutely true on so many different levels. It’s not just women that go through this, but it’s everyone who goes through this in some way, shape, or form. With that opening, can you dive into it?

Liz Dube: I love talking about this. It’s kind of related to this idea that clients will come to me and their sexuality has been shut down and then they get married. Maybe they were saving themselves for marriage, or maybe they’ve become a mom. There’s a transition in their life where they go. I’m trying to turn it back on. And I don’t know how to turn it back on. They don’t realize that all day long or all their lives they’ve been shutting down their sexuality because of a fear of being ashamed, being shamed, being told what you have to be, you can be a little bit sexy, but it doesn’t get slutty. So there’s this as the judgment of other people, other women that might judge us for showing up in a way that is like who do you think you are?

Or like the judgment about being slutty. Then there’s the piece of our safety that we walk around all day long, shutting down our sexuality because we have to keep ourselves safe. And some of that is a real danger from being assaulted. And some of that’s just the emotional danger from being verbally assaulted from people that are, that think that because we’re dressing in a certain way that that is sexy and makes us feel good is us saying, I’m asking for it, like this idea of that a woman dressing a certain way would be calling someone to come and rape her saying you want it. There are so many messages about women that we are constantly being shut down. And then we go into the safety of our own home, our own homes.

And now it’s okay, let’s flip the switch. That’s hard to do. Or being a mom all day where you can’t be on the playground dressed sexy. You’ve gotta dress like the other moms because you don’t want the other moms to judge you that you’re trying to be sexy. You’re a mom, don’t try to be sexy. You’re a mom. Now that’s that period of time is done. You get to be sexy during these small little windows in your lifespan, and now you don’t get to get to be sexy anymore. But then you go to your relationship you’re trying to figure out how do I ignite my desire? You don’t even realize you’ve been shutting it down for years on a daily basis. So many women I’m working with, I’m working on the basics of figuring out where their desire got lost along the way.

When did they start shutting it down and how to give themselves permission to start igniting it again? Because it is hard if you are going out in the corporate world thinking, you’re in a job and you feel like you can’t dress too sexy because you don’t either want to be sexually or harassed. I also want to be taken seriously. There’s so much that goes into use on a daily basis about squashing it. I think that men don’t as often have to experience that. That is often one of the big reasons why there’s this discrepancy and desire between men and women and I think it’s important for women to hear that, to normalize that so that we don’t have to feel like we’re broken. We’re not broken. We’ve just been protecting ourselves. And it’s hard to flip that switch when you get into the safety of your home and go, okay, I’ve been squashing it all day now, how do I ignite things?

Krystal Jakosky: Yeah. It’s the out little kid trying to reach for the candy jar and their hand keeps getting smacked away. Eventually, they just learn, okay, Frank, I don’t want the cookie jar. And here we are, we’ve been thinking, well, maybe I want the cookie jar. Nevermind. I can’t, I’ve gotta breastfeed or I’ve gotta go cook dinner. I’ve gotta do some laundry. I’ve gotta go to the corporate world. I’ve gotta do this. Do I have the opportunity to go to that cookie jar? When do I have the option to do that? And how do you flip that switch from, okay, now I’ve been everything everyone else needs me to be, I get to do this for 10 minutes? Then I’ve got to go back. It’s not easy to do that.
And it’s really unfair. My husband and I went on a vacation and he encouraged me to dress up for this one outing. I just looked at him and said, I got dressed. He said, are you sure? I like to dress nice. I like to feel good because it just makes me feel even better. I really want to put myself out there. But I dressed down that day and I was wearing a t-shirt and some shorts and it was cute, but it wasn’t what I normally would wear. He said, why are you wearing that instead of this? And I said because you are not going to be with me for a little while in this place. And if I dressed in that outfit, more people would be looking at me and I would personally feel uncomfortable and unsafe because what are people thinking about me in this space?

Because I would be dressed a little bit more than the locals or the other people that are around here and I’m not ready to be in that space. But that also meant that you’re saying that we would come back at the end of the day and he wanted me to feel sexy and fabulous all day so that we could come home. I can’t do that for my own safety. I’ve got to feel okay. And finding that balance between what works for me and how do I take care of myself and then how do I express myself later? It doesn’t mean that it’s not possible, guys. It does not mean that you cannot do it. You cannot figure out ways to flip that switch. It means that you get to be aware of it and you get to say, Hey, you know what?

I want to make this happen. And I know that I have to go out into the world and I have to put my armor on for the day. I am setting an intention for the evening to be able to take all that armor off and be me in all of my glory. And so you set little steps or little things throughout the day, or for when you get home, maybe you’re gonna have dinner delivered or maybe someone gets home before the other and they start a bath or what little steps can you put into action, into play so that you more easily slip into or out of the armor. It’s totally possible. You can absolutely do it. Liz, you have a four-week online coaching program.

Liz Dube: Yes, that is it. So I just want to say that was such a great exact example of what women experience every day and the fact that I love how you explain that because I think people really need to relate that we are all struggling with these married, single, divorced moms, no moms. And I just, I love that. That was such a great example to be able to help people really grab. And those examples are what help people in my program. It’s a four-week online coaching program. I designed this because I get so many clients, and some clients, a lot of clients can’t afford therapy. This is a great program for people who maybe don’t want therapy, they can’t afford therapy.

This is a program that is really designed for women who are struggling with desire, or who just want to be sexually empowered. They’re like, I don’t really know where to begin. Through the four-week online coaching program with me, I actually give them the tools to be able to start identifying what are they doing. That’s shutting it down tools to be able to prioritize sex and start to ignite things, tools, to be able to communicate to their partners about what they’ve figured out through that program. You will get weekly time with me and, with specific guidance, to be able to walk you through this program on a weekly basis. Every week there’s also a Q and A where you can ask me any question and make it specific to you because it’s not just this cookie-cutter idea of what ignites desire because everybody’s going to be different. So you need to figure out what ignites your desire for you. That’s where the tools that I give you, help you to identify that. And then I’m there to be able to answer questions, to walk through it. This is one more way for me to save the world one bedroom at a time. Because I was one-on-one coaching and one-on-one therapy is not getting me there fast enough.

Krystal Jakosky: Yeah. So two questions for you in your course can be, does everybody know that it’s you like me in your course?

Liz Dube: It’s completely anonymous. People don’t want to talk about that. So it is in a zoom format, but you only get to see me. Then all of my participants, I encourage to create their naughty diva names. Those are the names that they’ll be using in their communication with me in the communication with the group. But no one will be on video except for me. Nobody will be using their real names. I’ll make sure they have their naughty like Fran loves to fuck or is hoping to fuck. I don’t know, whatever names that you end up creating to get you in that mindset.

Krystal Jakosky: I have one other question. You’ve said that it’s for women who are struggling, and I know that there are men who also struggle. Have you had men that have taken this course and been able to just learn a little bit more about themselves and free up or do you try to stick more with the feminine side?

Liz Dube: I really stick with the feminine side. The course is designed for women. And there are a number of reasons for that. Throughout the years, I’ve found that a lot of the same tools work for my guys who are struggling with desire, but it’s a really different framework that affects men. Even though the same mindset goes into it, when I treat clients as this men or women, I found that in order for me to really have a program that fits, it really is for women. So that’ll be like the 2.0 for the guys. Someday when I get enough of them that want to participate

Krystal Jakosky: Yeah, that is fantastic. I stole a quote from your website and I just want to read it right now. It says we find that most problems with sex are driven by things that are not directly related to the actual act of sex. It’s all of the other stuff, like insecurities about our bodies, beliefs we have about what good sex looks like, how men and women are supposed to form sexually overall dissatisfaction in our relationships related to unresolved conflict, resentment towards our partner, communication difficulties, respect, loyalty trust, et cetera. You guys, I cannot tell you enough how important it is to get in touch with you, get in touch with who you are, what you like, what you are excited about, what excites you you’ll feel more alive, you’ll feel more expressed. You will feel more open and ready to just experience life in every way, shape, and form. That is possible. Liz, is there anything else that you want to add to our little chit-chat before we head out?

Liz Dube: Yeah. Well, I do want people to go to my TikTok because I have so much fun with that.

I just get excited. I get so excited when people see it because it brings me back to my twenties and my friends didn’t know what a conquering was and that’s a really important thing.
Krystal Jakosky: Right. It’s very beneficial.

Liz Dube: I would love people to go to my website, www.talksexwithliz.com, and see what I have to offer. I’ve written blogs. I’m on podcasts all the time. And I just want to share it because people need accurate information. It’s hard for women to be able to figure out how to balance these lives we live in. We’re so busy, we’re sacrificing all the time for so many people and sex is supposed to be a selfish act. It’s about pleasure and connection. And if we’re constantly doing things for other people, then sex begins. It’s one more thing on our to-do list. Like that’s, you know, and, and so you’re not gonna really find yourself in that experience if you aren’t giving yourself and to be able to lead into what you want and to also start giving yourself permission to say no, and to do the self-care that you’re always touting. It’s important. I think women just don’t even have a clue sometimes. They’re wondering why they’ve lost their desire, you’ve lost your desire. Of course, you’re struggling sexually. And I just really I’m wanting to help. This is a topic that I love.

Krystal Jakosky You said a couple of things I just have to bring out again. So number one, permission, you guys, you telling you guys permission to be you always, that means permission, in every way, shape and form. Not only are we giving it to you, but you also need to give it to yourself. We are telling you that it is okay to have permission and give yourself permission to enjoy that. And the other thing I want to just bring out is consent. That’s one of the conversations you need to have with your partners just say yes. What does yes mean and that’s okay. You need to stick to that and be solid on that. So permission to be you and consent, have those conversations. Liz, I have a few questions for you. Green or orange,

Liz Dube: Orange

Krystal Jakosky: City or country?

Liz Dube: Country.

Krystal Jakosky: Large groups or personal time,

Liz Dube: Large groups,

Krystal Jakosky: Pine trees or salty ocean air

Liz Dube: Salty ocean air.

Krystal Jakoky: Which season and why

Liz Dube: Fall? Because it reminds me of when it was time to go back to school and I’m an extrovert. So during the summer, I got lonely. I wanted to see everybody and go to school. It was a safe refuge for me growing up.

Krystal Jakosky: Oh wow. And my last one is, as far as self-care goes, what is the most unique form of self-care you like indulging in?

Liz Dube: I was going to say masturbation, but that wasn’t unique. That’s just on the tip of my tongue. Because I don’t think I said masturbation in this whole podcast. And so I think I couldn’t leave without saying that. So the most unique, oh, I don’t know if this is unique, but when my partner and I, the house that we live in, we gutted it and we made a bedroom into a bathroom. So I have a huge bathroom and I like to have just nice, slow mornings, getting myself ready, taking a shower, and my beautiful shower. Being able to be in an environment that I feel is beautiful. And I am, and I get to take my time to listen to music, listen to podcasts and slowly get ready and work out the kinks in my curly hair. And so those mornings are really important to me and having a beautiful space to have that time alone with myself.

Krystal Jakosky: That is so beautiful. I’m so perfect. Hey guys, did you hear that? She likes to have slow mornings to get into your day. Nice and easy and create this beautiful space that you can do that is because that’s just a reflection of you and where you’re at. So you can find liz@talksexwithliz.com on the TikTok sock talk sex with Liz. She’s got a YouTube channel talking sex with Liz. I’m telling you she’s just fabulous and fun. I spent the morning just giggling and listening to Liz anyway, just because it puts me in the mood to chat with you. So check out her online course and find her in any which way that you want to. And realistically, as I all always say, if you’re not quite ready here if Liz doesn’t really work for you, and yet you’re interested in it, find somebody who does find somebody who helps to open you up and helps you to explore everything there is to explore about your personal intimacy, your personal connection with yourself physically. How do you feel and how do you connect with the people around you, Liz? Thank you so much for being here.

Liz Dube: Thanks, Krystal. I love your energy. It was a blessing to be here. I really enjoyed talking with you and seeing your face and your smile. Thanks for having me.

Krystal Jakosky. Thank you. You are an absolutely beautiful human being inside and out, and I’m just grateful for you. Hey guys, until next time, we’ll see you here on Breathe In, Breathe Out.

I hope this moment of self-care and healing brought you some hope and peace. I’m @krystaljakosky on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube and I hope you check us out and follow along for more content coming soon. I look forward to being with you again here on Breathe In, Breathe Out. Until next time, take care.